Investigating Cooling Below Ambient Water Temperatures
Investigating Cooling Below Ambient Water Temperatures
8/31/2012 Thread Update Note: This is a repost of the original thread, this cooling was actually put into use in June of 2011.
As the title says, "Exploring Below Ambient Water Cooling", below is the cooling setup that was in use when this thread was first posted, the pictures are still here simply because it is a viable fully functional alternative cooling solution. This cooling solution has gone through many changes testing different ideas you will need to scroll into the thread, to discover those changes, as they reference what works and what doesn't.
Scrolling close to the end of the thread, to see the present setup using TEC (Peltier), assisted cooling eliminating the ice altogether, taking this cooling solution from high maintenance to literally zero maintenance. Use this information however you decide to apply it for your own needs and goals. This is definitely exploring below ambient cooling, enjoy the pictures and the read, and thanks for checking the thread out! Ryan
Link to TEC/Peltier CPU Water Cooling Thread
I have run traditional water cooling closed loops, but the traditional closed loop did not meet my cooling needs, I was looking for a cooling solution to use below ambient water temperatures, to handle the overclocking load temperatures I was reaching, it's given fact you can get more 24/7 overclock stability, the cooler you can keep the CPU.
Pictures can say a thousand words, and from the very beginning of this project there have been changes and modifications made to improve the performance, solve issues and problems, and being this is a below ambient water cooling solution it needs to start with a Caution.
Caution: Water temperatures down to 0c produce condensation, and if you intend going that low motherboard insulating precautions have to be taken.
You can safely operate approximately 8c below ambient room temperature, more than likely wherever you live without any condensation at all. That 8c below ambient is an extremely conservative number, as where I live it's 13c below ambient that I run. However that is totally dependent on the dew point level where you live, and you will have to test and discover how low you can safely run below ambient, without condensation, for yourself.
More regarding temperature and condensation below.
Also this is not a mobile solution, you will not be carrying this cooling solution to your local lan party, even though you could always tap into your buddies drink cooler. :lol: JKing
So speaking of cooler, even though the pump is the heart, the cooler is the reservoir in my situation holding 10 gallons of distilled water, leaving enough room to add if needed 2 2/3rd filled jugs of frozen distilled water, ICE blocks, to drop the water temperature to where I want it.
I'm using a Coleman cooler widely available even at Walmart, the model I am using and most
Coleman
end drain
cooler models
have the perfect size drain outlet to accept a barbed brass fitting, with nothing more than a hose clamp to secure it.
Feed Line Connection Close Up
The water return line had the be cut in so the lid could be closed and sealed, the wire you see in the picture is a temperature probe.
Return Line Close Up w Temp Probe Wire Entering Cooler
The heart of the system is a Swiftech MCP655 variable speed pump.
All the tubing is insulated.
Critter control by AC Pan Tabs, 2 tabs per gallon have worked nicely, no critters growing in the solution, no corrosive metal or plastic damage, these AC Pan Tabs are stocked at Home Depot or can be ordered online. Add the tablets 2 at a time allowing complete dissolving between additions until you've completed adding all you'll be using.
Do not add all the tablets at one time!
I also run 1 Silver killcoil inside the pump intake tubing, located as far away from the pump as possible.
Pan Tablets Package Close UP
The perfect filters for the Cooler Master drain which is the pump intake line are the Spectre high performance gas filter replacement cartridges pictured below, stocked at your local Autozone or also orderable online.
Filter Package Closeup
They are
nylon mesh open end filters
that
you cap one end
and
the other end fits snugly into the drain opening.
I have since modified the filtering to allow longer run time between filter maintenance swap out and clean by
mating two of the filters together
and used JB Weld epoxy to do it.
Since you have to open the cooler to change out the ice blocks, dust in the air gets into the cooler, the filters trap any dust particulates, and keep them from entering the pump and water block, keeping the circulating part of the system clean.
Use whatever water block you like this is an
XSPC Rasa
and a
Danger Den.
Temperature and Condensation:
Humidity levels where you live, will affect the operational water temperatures you can drop down to and safely run with condensation not a problem. You will have to do your own tests to discover what water temperature level, condensation begins to occur. When condensation begins to form, unless you take serious insulation precautions, you need to operate at temperatures above that point.
Directed airflow on the condensation producing elements inside the computer will evaporate the forming condensation allowing you to go below the condensation forming point to a certain extent, but eventually you will discover a lower temperature the fan won't stop the condensation.
Condensation begins to form for me at 8c water temperature that's 15c below ambient room temperature, that's some serious overclocking headroom., I usually operate around the 15c water temperature range, which is 8c below ambient. Over time you will learn what works good for you, whether surfing the net, benchmarking, gaming, etc., and how much ice you'll need to support the activity at the overclock you're running.
CPU Temperature Results:
These comparative tests below were run with my 2500K overclocked to 4500mhz @ 1.325v with one 580GTX at 23c ambient.
The 4 core temperatures were averaged together for one total score.
Air Cooling;
Noctua NH-D14, Idle = 32.75c, Load = 54.75c
Thermalright 120 Extreme 2 fans in push/pull, Idle = 32c, Load = 51.75c
Standard Water Cooling Closed Loop;
XSPC Rasa RS240 kit, Idle = 30.75c, Load = 50c
XSPC Rasa with a Black Ice 240 Radiator, Idle = 30.25c, Load = 48.75c
Ice Block Chilled Water cooling;
Water Temperature at 23c Ambient, Idle = 27.75c, Load = 46.5c
Water Temperature at 20c, No Condensation, Idle = 26c, Load = 43.5c
Water Temperature at 15c, No Condensation, Idle = 21.5c, Load = 37c
Water Temperature at 10c, No Condensation, Idle = 15c, Load = 34c
Water Temperature at 7c, Condensation Direct Fan Controlled, Idle = 13c, Load = 30.25c
Note Regarding CPU Water Blocks Used:
I have tested 3 water blocks, Danger Den MC-TDX (Highest Flow Rate), Swiftech Apogee XT rev2, and XSPC Rasa, the Rasa Water Block, is the best performer temperature wise.
Thermal Mass:
I've wanted to address the subject of Thermal Mass because some here don't fully understand how this works in your favor with this cooling solution, some relating to slush box reference simply stuck a radiator in coolers or buckets with crushed or small formed ice. There are many examples of various types of slush boxes across the internet of tried projects, some even used dry ice and water, and of course it is a short lived solution because ice melts and dry ice evaporates. In the case of dry ice and methanol slush boxes sub zero temperatures are produced causing a host of problems to deal with way past condensation. I found it comical when one of the guys radiator actually froze, what water circulation did he have then. :lol:
Regarding my setup and thermal mass, I have 8 gallons of water inside an insulated cooler, I use the frozen jugs of water because they are a dependable constant variable, it takes time to cool down 8 solid gallons of water, it does not happen instantly, and in the reverse, it takes time to warm up 8 gallons of water. This is not a short time solution as far as water temperature is concerned even with 2500K overclocks to
5,000mhz
and
5,100mhz,
thermal mass allows those high clocks to be 24/7 rock solid stable, the only reason I do not run those clocks 24/7 is the voltage it takes to run them.
Without this cooling I could not run my 2500K at 5ghz for anything more than a CPU-Z validation, but this cooling allows not only reaching but acquiring stability once getting there. The thermal mass of the water ensures longevity of certain temperature levels that you may be needing to accomplish your overclocking goals successfully. Additionally for longevity the system is constantly running at cooler levels all the time, even if I allowed the water temperature to rise to ambient room temperature, it still bests a standard water cooling closed loop, it opens completely new doors of possibility.
If you have the end cooling results staring you in the face, the maintenance is a fair trade for the cooling gains. I know this cooling solution is not for everyone, it takes up space, it is a high maintenance solution, it takes a time investment, it is not portable or potable, you cannot drink the water, but if you do have the room for it and you ever try it for yourself, I'd love to know what you have to say then.
I chose to build a Rad Box for managing the GPUs, as I already possessed most of the necessary components from previous water cooling setups. I repurposed an old Super Micro server case, removed its interior and installed a 360-degree radiator top along with a 240-degree radiator base. Both radiators are equipped with shrouds, ensuring continuous and unobstructed airflow across the entire cooling fin surface. The rear 120mm fan introduces fresh air into the Rad Box, and its speed is adjustable to ensure direct pressurization of the box. This setup guarantees that after the radiators extract their required air, the front intake still allows sufficient exhaust. The case feet were extended to provide adequate exhaust height for the bottom fan, and the extenders were secured with JB Weld epoxy; the black tape used is temporary.
View of the top radiator
View of the bottom radiator
Picture of the XSPC Pump/Res and fan controller
Inside perspective
Outside perspective
Each connection from the Ice Cooler to the CPU, and from the Rad Box to the GPUs, is completely insulated.
Rad Box connections for GPUs.
Ice cooler setup for CPU.
Complete interior visibility.
Rad Box finished appearance.
Top perspective
Closed fan shot
Side angle
Just for laughs > Ry's Rad Box
😉
GPU cooling evaluation using Rad Box:
To note, the standard temps for air-cooled 580GTX cards were Idle at 34°C, Load at 80°C.
With the ice cooler, water temperature dropped to 19°C, Idle at 23°C, Load at 35°C.
After installing Rad Box, the 580s now run at Idle 27°C and Load 40°C.
The Rad Box clearly improves cooling, effectively eliminating the extra heat from the ice cooler and enabling the pump speed to drop to level 2. One jug of ice in the cooler now performs the same work as two without the Rad Box.
You know I’m asking you to construct that freezer unit just to demonstrate its functionality. But regarding this arrangement, are you rotating the ice containers every four hours or so? And what’s the capacity of the freezer for all your gallons? Maybe that’s a bit excessive. But how long can you keep running the clocks before you need to reset everything? I’m just curious because this feels like a realistic step between now and after I finish building it. Man, I enjoy testing things, and at higher settings you can experience the game as the developers meant it to be. That’s why I’m really interested, even if it’s just for my own sake.
The images below represent a valuable lesson gained through experience. This part of my development is shared here, as the visuals are currently not being utilized for the project. The Rad Box offers a more effective cooling method for GPUs and is now fully functional. This endeavor has been a lengthy journey of exploration, and the knowledge I've acquired will be useful for anyone considering this cooling approach.
In my previous setup, I was managing the CPU with six jugs in total, but only two were consistently frozen in the freezer, while the others remained partially thawed. This was the most straightforward cooling setup I had at the time.
If I were browsing online, I would typically use one jug in the morning and another in the evening, which would maintain a temperature around 15°C. However, incorporating the GPUs into the cooling system increased the heat load to maintain that temperature. This necessitated switching to two jugs for each temperature adjustment, changing the rotation from six to ten jugs. The schedule shifted to two jugs in the morning, two around noon, and two in the evening.
The added heat from the GPUs significantly raised the temperature, pushing it to around 15°C. This made gaming much more challenging, especially with an overclocked Sandy Bridge K series CPU.
It's important to note that the jugs were only two-thirds full at the time, as freezing water would cause them to expand and potentially leak if left completely full. To prevent contamination, I used distilled water.
When I added the two GPUs, I made further adjustments by splitting the return line to the cooler and installing two additional radiators in the existing loop. This was intended as a supplementary cooling method, but it led to higher water temperatures—up to 26°C, which was ideal for mildew growth. I quickly abandoned this approach, cleaned the lid, and returned to the traditional ice cooling method.
There were no issues with water quality in the cooler, but air space above it became a concern for mildew development. This problem was entirely due to the warmer water temperature, not the water itself.
Eventually, I realized that a closed-loop system with minimal air in the reservoir was the most effective solution. After testing various configurations, I discovered the Rad Box to be the optimal choice. Thanks for your support!
Learning from this experience, I now understand that using radiators in a chilled water system is counterproductive. The heat from the radiators actually raises the water temperature, which is detrimental. This lesson has guided me back to a more reliable cooling strategy for GPUs.
you understand that you're asking me to construct that freezer unit to demonstrate its functionality. but regarding this configuration, are you rotating the ice containers every four hours or so, and what is the capacity of the freezer for all your gallons? maybe that’s excessive. but how long can you keep running your clocks before you need to reset it? i only mention this because it feels like a logical step between now and after I finish building it. honestly, i enjoy testing things, and at higher settings you experience the game as intended by the developers. so really, my interest comes from personal reasons, but i truly appreciate your understanding that i genuinely like this concept.
I don't think anyone on this forum really can say that anything or any idea is crazy.
We're the guys that run water to cool their computers...that might put us in a room of our own, but we're all on the same boat, in the same padded room and all sharing the same straight jacket.
There is never enough crazy when it comes to watercooling.
Edit: Have you considered a circulation pump for your cooler? I wonder if this would increase cooling performance much like a convection oven with circulating air improves consistent baking?
Sure, that's interesting. I don't have two freezers, but I do have a stand-up freezer that can store around 30 gallons. Would you think it would last about six hours of game time, or maybe three?
He's employing a big cooler instead of a freezer or fridge for cooling purposes. You wouldn't typically use a standard fridge or freezer unless you've made changes to it. I believe we talked about this in another thread, so I'm not insisting it's impossible, but it seems unlikely with a regular fridge or freezer in its default setting. He's placing the ice jugs in his freezer and then moving them to the cooler to lower the water temperature for better overclock performance and more stable temperatures.