Diving into cool water that's right there under us
Diving into cool water that's right there under us
8/31/2012 Thread Update Note: This is a repost of the original thread, this cooling was actually put into use in June of 2011. As the title says, "Exploring Below Ambient Water Cooling", below is the cooling setup that was in use when this thread was first posted, the pictures are still here simply because it is a viable fully functional alternative cooling solution. This cooling solution has gone through many changes testing different ideas you will need to scroll into the thread, to discover those changes, as they reference what works and what doesn't. Scrolling close to the end of the thread, to see the present setup using TEC (Peltier), assisted cooling eliminating the ice altogether, taking this cooling solution from high maintenance to literally zero maintenance. Use this information however you decide to apply it for your own needs and goals. This is definitely exploring below ambient cooling, enjoy the pictures and the read, and thanks for checking the thread out! Ryan Link to TEC/Peltier CPU Water Cooling Thread I have run traditional water cooling closed loops, but the traditional closed loop did not meet my cooling needs, I was looking for a cooling solution to use below ambient water temperatures, to handle the overclocking load temperatures I was reaching, it's given fact you can get more 24/7 overclock stability, the cooler you can keep the CPU. Pictures can say a thousand words, and from the very beginning of this project there have been changes and modifications made to improve the performance, solve issues and problems, and being this is a below ambient water cooling solution it needs to start with a Caution. Caution: Water temperatures down to 0c produce condensation, and if you intend going that low motherboard insulating precautions have to be taken. You can safely operate approximately 8c below ambient room temperature, more than likely wherever you live without any condensation at all. That 8c below ambient is an extremely conservative number, as where I live it's 13c below ambient that I run. However that is totally dependent on the dew point level where you live, and you will have to test and discover how low you can safely run below ambient, without condensation, for yourself. More regarding temperature and condensation below. Also this is not a mobile solution, you will not be carrying this cooling solution to your local lan party, even though you could always tap into your buddies drink cooler. :lol: JKing So speaking of cooler, even though the pump is the heart, the cooler is the reservoir in my situation holding 10 gallons of distilled water, leaving enough room to add if needed 2 2/3rd filled jugs of frozen distilled water, ICE blocks, to drop the water temperature to where I want it. I'm using a Coleman cooler widely available even at Walmart, the model I am using and most Coleman end drain cooler models have the perfect size drain outlet to accept a barbed brass fitting, with nothing more than a hose clamp to secure it. Feed Line Connection Close Up The water return line had the be cut in so the lid could be closed and sealed, the wire you see in the picture is a temperature probe. Return Line Close Up w Temp Probe Wire Entering Cooler The heart of the system is a Swiftech MCP655 variable speed pump. All the tubing is insulated. Critter control by AC Pan Tabs, 2 tabs per gallon have worked nicely, no critters growing in the solution, no corrosive metal or plastic damage, these AC Pan Tabs are stocked at Home Depot or can be ordered online. Add the tablets 2 at a time allowing complete dissolving between additions until you've completed adding all you'll be using. Do not add all the tablets at one time! I also run 1 Silver killcoil inside the pump intake tubing, located as far away from the pump as possible. Pan Tablets Package Close UP The perfect filters for the Cooler Master drain which is the pump intake line are the Spectre high performance gas filter replacement cartridges pictured below, stocked at your local Autozone or also orderable online. Filter Package Closeup They are nylon mesh open end filters that you cap one end and the other end fits snugly into the drain opening. I have since modified the filtering to allow longer run time between filter maintenance swap out and clean by mating two of the filters together and used JB Weld epoxy to do it. Since you have to open the cooler to change out the ice blocks, dust in the air gets into the cooler, the filters trap any dust particulates, and keep them from entering the pump and water block, keeping the circulating part of the system clean. Use whatever water block you like this is an XSPC Rasa and a Danger Den. Temperature and Condensation: Humidity levels where you live, will affect the operational water temperatures you can drop down to and safely run with condensation not a problem. You will have to do your own tests to discover what water temperature level, condensation begins to occur. When condensation begins to form, unless you take serious insulation precautions, you need to operate at temperatures above that point. Directed airflow on the condensation producing elements inside the computer will evaporate the forming condensation allowing you to go below the condensation forming point to a certain extent, but eventually you will discover a lower temperature the fan won't stop the condensation. Condensation begins to form for me at 8c water temperature that's 15c below ambient room temperature, that's some serious overclocking headroom., I usually operate around the 15c water temperature range, which is 8c below ambient. Over time you will learn what works good for you, whether surfing the net, benchmarking, gaming, etc., and how much ice you'll need to support the activity at the overclock you're running. CPU Temperature Results: These comparative tests below were run with my 2500K overclocked to 4500mhz @ 1.325v with one 580GTX at 23c ambient. The 4 core temperatures were averaged together for one total score. Air Cooling; Noctua NH-D14, Idle = 32.75c, Load = 54.75c Thermalright 120 Extreme 2 fans in push/pull, Idle = 32c, Load = 51.75c Standard Water Cooling Closed Loop; XSPC Rasa RS240 kit, Idle = 30.75c, Load = 50c XSPC Rasa with a Black Ice 240 Radiator, Idle = 30.25c, Load = 48.75c Ice Block Chilled Water cooling; Water Temperature at 23c Ambient, Idle = 27.75c, Load = 46.5c Water Temperature at 20c, No Condensation, Idle = 26c, Load = 43.5c Water Temperature at 15c, No Condensation, Idle = 21.5c, Load = 37c Water Temperature at 10c, No Condensation, Idle = 15c, Load = 34c Water Temperature at 7c, Condensation Direct Fan Controlled, Idle = 13c, Load = 30.25c Note Regarding CPU Water Blocks Used: I have tested 3 water blocks, Danger Den MC-TDX (Highest Flow Rate), Swiftech Apogee XT rev2, and XSPC Rasa, the Rasa Water Block, is the best performer temperature wise. Thermal Mass: I've wanted to address the subject of Thermal Mass because some here don't fully understand how this works in your favor with this cooling solution, some relating to slush box reference simply stuck a radiator in coolers or buckets with crushed or small formed ice. There are many examples of various types of slush boxes across the internet of tried projects, some even used dry ice and water, and of course it is a short lived solution because ice melts and dry ice evaporates. In the case of dry ice and methanol slush boxes sub zero temperatures are produced causing a host of problems to deal with way past condensation. I found it comical when one of the guys radiator actually froze, what water circulation did he have then. :lol: Regarding my setup and thermal mass, I have 8 gallons of water inside an insulated cooler, I use the frozen jugs of water because they are a dependable constant variable, it takes time to cool down 8 solid gallons of water, it does not happen instantly, and in the reverse, it takes time to warm up 8 gallons of water. This is not a short time solution as far as water temperature is concerned even with 2500K overclocks to 5,000mhz and 5,100mhz, thermal mass allows those high clocks to be 24/7 rock solid stable, the only reason I do not run those clocks 24/7 is the voltage it takes to run them. Without this cooling I could not run my 2500K at 5ghz for anything more than a CPU-Z validation, but this cooling allows not only reaching but acquiring stability once getting there. The thermal mass of the water ensures longevity of certain temperature levels that you may be needing to accomplish your overclocking goals successfully. Additionally for longevity the system is constantly running at cooler levels all the time, even if I allowed the water temperature to rise to ambient room temperature, it still bests a standard water cooling closed loop, it opens completely new doors of possibility. If you have the end cooling results staring you in the face, the maintenance is a fair trade for the cooling gains. I know this cooling solution is not for everyone, it takes up space, it is a high maintenance solution, it takes a time investment, it is not portable or potable, you cannot drink the water, but if you do have the room for it and you ever try it for yourself, I'd love to know what you have to say then.
I made a Rad Box Mod because I had most things already ready for it. From old water cooling loops. I used an old Super Micro server case but took the guts out and put on a 360 top radiator with a 240 bottom radiator. Both radiators have shrouds, which lets cool air move through every fin without stopping. A 120mm fan at the back pushes in fresh air that is controlled to a speed where it creates enough pressure to push what the radiators need and still leave some air out the front so they can breathe. I stretched the case feet so the bottom fan has room to blow up, glued them with JB Weld epoxy, and black tape just for now on the top side. On top of the radiator you see the view from inside. Outside you see the radiators and pump/resistor controller. Inside you see everything connected: all lines going from Ice Cooler to CPU and Rad Box to GPUs are fully insulated.
Rad Box Lines go to GPUs, Ice Cooler lines go to CPU. Full View inside computer. Rad Box Finished View. Top View Fans Close Up Angle View Just for Giggles > Ry's Rad Box 😉 Rad Box GPU cooling testing: For the record; The stock temperatures of air cooled 580GTX cards were Idle = 34c, Load = 80c. The 580s cooled by ice cooler with water temperature 19c, Idle = 23c, Load = 35c. The 580s now cooled by Rad Box, Idle = 27c, Load = 40c. The Rad Box for cooling GPU is working well, it totally removes the GPU added heat from Ice Cooling, which has allowed dropping Ice Cooler pump speed to level 2, and now 1 jug of ice in cooler does what it took 2 to do without Rad Box.
Thanks for the updates Ryan. I really liked this setup when I first saw pictures of it. The idea of being able to add jugs of ice is my favorite part. It looks like a great idea and I am happy that it's working well so far. How much heat are you putting out? How many jugs do you need in the freezer so you always have two there at all times? And finally, what temperatures do you see with ice and without ice?
You know how much I want you to build that freezer thing? Just show me how it works right away. But back to where all those gallons are going... are you spinning the ice out every four hours, or is that too slow? How big is that box they're freezing in there? Maybe that's way too big for what we need. But how long can you keep running your clocks before you have to stop and turn them down to idle mode? I just ask this because it feels like a good transition period between now and when I finally build it myself. Man, I love playing games, especially at high settings where the real feeling of the game starts to show up. So really, my main reason is that I care about you understanding why I want this idea so much.
I made a big mistake with my picture below. I am sharing this lesson because the pictures are not actually needed for the real project right now. The Rad Box is much more efficient than the old way, so it is fully working and being used. This whole project took a long time to find the right solution, and here are all the lessons I learned in case anyone else decides to try this cooling trick.
For just my CPU, I had 6 jugs total. That means about 2 were in the cooler at most, while 4 were frozen in the freezer (the next two will be swapped out). With regular internet surfing and light use, 1 jug kept me around 15C during the morning, and another 1 jug kept me cool in the evening.
But when I added my GPUs to the cooling loop, running at the same 15C temperature while gaming got too hot. I needed more jugs for every change out. So I changed from a 6-jug cycle to a 10-jug cycle: 2 jugs in the morning, 2 jugs around noon, and 2 jugs in the evening. Gaming with an overclocked Sandy Bridge K-series CPU makes things get really hot quickly.
Just remember that these jugs are only about two-thirds filled. If you fill them completely to the brim, the water will freeze and break apart when it turns solid. Also, freezing and refreezing hurts the plastic over time; they can leak after only about ten cycles. That is why I always use distilled water so a leak won't contaminate the system.
When I added my two GPUs to meet my cooling needs, I made another change: I split the return line to the cooler and added 2 small radiators in the loop that used to be there for other coolers as a side option. But using just those radiator loops meant I never felt like I had enough cooling power when I started.
It also brought new problems because the water temperature inside the cooler rose to 26C, which is three degrees above normal air temperature. That was the perfect environment for mildew to start growing under my cooler lid. I quickly stopped that idea and cleaned off the lid, closed the radiator line off, and went all the way back to full ice cooling.
There were no problems with the water itself in the cooler—only the space above the water got too warm inside the unit, creating a perfect place for mildew to grow. But there was nothing wrong below the water; the problem started from that extra air space because it kept the water warmer than usual. I needed something else to cool my GPUs themselves. Putting them on a normal closed loop with very little air seemed like the best option. When I thought about how to do this, I didn't even consider using a Rad Box until I saw one in Moto's shop, and then I decided it was the right move. Thanks for helping me find that solution!
Using a Rad Box for my GPUs brought back my ice cooling of the CPU exactly where it started: 6 jugs cycling from the freezer to the cooler. Here is a major fact I learned this time: Using radiators in a chilled water setup is a bad idea, period! Radiators have a reverse effect and heat the chilled water trying to bring it back up to normal air temperature.
toolmaker_03: you know that asking me to build a freezer unit and show how it works right? but back here about this setup, are you spinning those ice gallons out every four hours or so? what size is the freezer all your gallons freezing in? maybe that's too big. but how long can you keep running these clocks before you have to turn them down to idle mode? I'm just asking because this looks like a good step between now and later when I build it. man, I love gaming, and at high settings you get the experience intended by the programmers. so really my interest is mostly selfish, but i hope you understand that i truly like this idea. please take my reply to 4745454b into account because some of your questions were answered while typing it up. I actually have two freezers in my house and those jugs are split between the two, moving the GPUs to their own closed loops as you said above. that will remove their added heat from the cooler. This cooling solution has let me overclock my 2500K CPU by 5.1 ghz with rock solid stability. even though i could run it daily at 24/7 at those clocks, i run them at 4500 mhz to save power over time. I can still do the same thing with the GPUs added, but just a lot more Ice for gaming.
I don't think anyone on this forum really can say that anything or any idea is crazy. We're the guys that run water to cool their computers...that might put us in a room of our own, but we're all on the same boat, in the same padded room and all sharing the same straight jacket. There is never enough crazy when it comes to watercooling. Edit: Have you considered a circulation pump for your cooler? I wonder if this would increase cooling performance much like a convection oven with circulating air improves consistent baking?
He uses a big cool box instead of a regular fridge or freezer. You don't just put a normal one out of the box, unless you change it yourself. I think we talked about this before in another place, so while he might not say it's impossible, it's very unlikely to work with a stock unit without changing anything. He puts ice jugs in his freezer first, then moves them into the cooler to lower the water temperature and keep things running hotter and more stably.